"為何我們存在?"

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quantumkit
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文章 quantumkit » 週五 23 5月, 2008 15:17

you are right =P

here is the "easy-to-read" summary (instead of a 5-page paper)
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/8732

but there are also some data specific to physicist and scientists of other fields. I hope to paste it here later. Or you can google for RAAS "Religion Among Academic Scientists"

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David
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文章 David » 週五 23 5月, 2008 16:11

quantumkit 寫:
你冇證據, 但我有Nature article bor…

Dont need to argue on this point =)

我唔同意你d 字眼, describing the nature 沒有比 explaining the nature 低級, 佢地係中性, sometime one is more important than the other.

In physics of course there are some more "fundamental" principles (e.g. symmetries, conservation, least action etc), F=ma 只不過係一種interpretation, you can use momentum, Lagrangian, Hamiltonian method etc …

最後, scientific method 除左provide deeper understanding of how things work, 仲有prediction. 我唔知什麼宗教有可信的prediction.

算la, 其實e 個世界就係佢有佢信, 我有我唔信. 我只不過係不滿有部份人(i am not talking about anyone here) 唔去求真(when spreading information), 咁同周圍欺騙無分別
Thanks for the evidence. Actually, my main point in writing that passage is just that there is no conflict between science and religion, just like what some people have raised in this thread.

Even if I am given any survey result, I still think there is nothing wrong to be a religious scientist due to the reasons I have given. Also, those survey are still about the BELIEF of scientists about this issue. If we change the question for scientists to 'Do you have 100% proof for the non-existent of god', it will be interesting to see what the answers are.

Can surveys about the belief of scientists become a proof of the existent or non-existent of god?

From what I've read, I don't see any conflict with quantumkit. May be I've not explained well. I have not said that 'describing the nature is inferior to explaining the nature', I agree completely with you that they are both equally good things to pursue. When I mention 'describing' and 'explaining', I am just emphasizing the different nature between science and religion. The misunderstanding arises probably because I've used the word 'just' when saying 'just describing nature'. Guess I should have deleted that.

I use F=ma only as an example to illustrate the point that scientist find out the rules of nature rather than explaining why we have those laws. Of course, you are right about other ways to describe motion. Furthermore, F=ma is of course not the most fundamental law. But let's say we have found one super-equation some day that predicts everything, we are still left with WHY we have that rule in our universe and not another.

Yes, religion does not provide prediction. But that's not what religion is supposed to do. This is another source of conflict between religion and science: We seem to demand science to do what religion do (e.g. Imagine an extreme religious person says 'science is useless. It never answers moral questions!') Or we demand religion to do what science do (e.g. Religion is useless. It never predicts the weather tomorrow!)

We won't say that a table is useless because it cannot fly. Different disciplines have different uses.

If we accept that they are just different, dealing with different things and have different nature, and not mixing them up, then I believe there is no conflict.

Well, may be this is just my stupid belief..... cannot be proved by science. :? I can be absolutely wrong. Who knows?

As with regards to 'e 個世界就係佢有佢信, 我有我唔信', I also agree with you. We all believe in things, and we cannot find any proof to prove 100% that what we believe is true. So, no matter how much rational facts we consider in any problem, at some point, belief comes in.

What I hope is that when people believe in something, be prepared that it can be wrong. Once we start thinking that what we believe can be wrong, dialogue can begin. But this can be hard. Just imagine Muslim and Christian sitting together and say that what they believe may be wrong....should be an interesting meeting!
最後由 David 於 週五 23 5月, 2008 21:27 編輯,總共編輯了 7 次。

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Wah!!
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文章 Wah!! » 週五 23 5月, 2008 17:29

如果相信有一個不能被科學證明的"神"創造了宇宙的基本規律, 那麼我會想問這個"神"又是什么創造出來了. 然後又再問這個"神的神"是什么創造出來......(不斷地循環問下去)

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David
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文章 David » 週五 23 5月, 2008 17:58

quantumkit 寫:here is the "easy-to-read" summary (instead of a 5-page paper)
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/8732
I am surprised that 'Almost 52 percent of scientists surveyed identified themselves as having no current religious affiliation compared with only 14 percent of the general population.'. So, there are still a lot of scientists (48%) who have to live with the so-called 'struggle' between 'conflicting nature' between science and religion.

Also, the article states that "Our study data do not strongly support the idea that scientists simply drop their religious identities upon professional training".

When Tarepanda wrote that 'many scientists believe in god', perhaps he can be considered to be correct since 48% is quite a lot. Tarepanda did not say 'MOST scientists are believers'.

Nature, however, showed a very low figure. Perhaps the results depend on exactly how the survey was carried out, and I admit that I don't have time to check all the details out.

Just like all the research about the safety of mobile phones, we hear different stories every day. What do you believe?
最後由 David 於 週五 23 5月, 2008 20:44 編輯,總共編輯了 1 次。

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Wah!!
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文章 Wah!! » 週五 23 5月, 2008 18:38

我想知道信神的科學家相信的是一個怎樣的"神"?
是人格化的, 還是非人格化的?

另外小弟英文差, 唔好好理解到樓上的正確意思, 有無人可以幫手翻譯一下? :oops: :oops: :oops:

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WFPC2
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文章 WFPC2 » 週五 23 5月, 2008 19:33

Wah!! 寫:如果相信有一個不能被科學證明的"神"創造了宇宙的基本規律, 那麼我會想問這個"神"又是什么創造出來了. 然後又再問這個"神的神"是什么創造出來......(不斷地循環問下去)
這個困擾人的問題或許衍生自人們既有的時空觀和因果律,
如果上帝必需依存於時空,因果律依存於時空,那麼這個問題
將永遠不會有了結的一日.

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梅西爾
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文章 梅西爾 » 週五 23 5月, 2008 19:45

WFPC2 寫:愛因斯坦稱自己信仰上帝,他信仰哲學家史賓諾莎所說的上帝,
祗會在宇宙和諧秩序中顯露自已的上帝,而非那個汗涉人政的人格化
上帝或是甚麼超自然權威.

我時常在想,他們所說的上帝對人莫不關心,信來有什麼用?
但是,
上帝可能只是創造了促成生命的偶然。

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David
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文章 David » 週五 23 5月, 2008 21:09

Tarepanda 寫:愛因斯坦,霍金等知名科學家
有沒人知道他信不信神的存在的?
Two quotes that, IMHO, summarise the main views of religion of Einstein:

1. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

2. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein

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WenXP
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文章 WenXP » 週五 23 5月, 2008 23:26

Wah!! 寫:我想知道信神的科學家相信的是一個怎樣的"神"?
是人格化的, 還是非人格化的?
不能一概而論吧!
而且, 信仰跟科學是兩回事, 為甚麼硬要扯上關係?

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Wah!!
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文章 Wah!! » 週五 23 5月, 2008 23:38

我想知道有無相关的統計啫 :D

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梅西爾
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文章 梅西爾 » 週六 24 5月, 2008 10:58

當一個人信有上帝,
是因為要找一個心靈寄托。

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WFPC2
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文章 WFPC2 » 週一 26 5月, 2008 01:39


quantumkit
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文章 quantumkit » 週一 26 5月, 2008 06:49

WFPC2 寫:有那些科學家信神?
http://blog.readnovel.com/article/htm/tid_460486.html
你post 條link 的用意係??

我也可以找一些list of 那些科學家唔信神
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_at ... technology

--------
1986年及2005年美國分別有兩場官司關於Intelligent design/creationism vs Evolution (whether or not teaching them in high school)
兩次都分別有72 及38 位Nobel prize winners support evolution (search wiki and you will find the list)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design
Support intelligent design o既 nobel prize winner = 0

唔知有冇人做過D survey 那些科學家信神而且係記名及他們親口講信神…

Stephen Hawking 算係比較religious la, 但我冇聽過或者讀過佢話神存在(of coz' one can show me where to read this). 上次佢係香港答左一句"maybe", 那份"天使心" 就大標題 "MAYBE!!"(要知道霍金講野冇語氣可言…簡直係一廂情願)

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扒飯撈麵
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文章 扒飯撈麵 » 週一 26 5月, 2008 06:53

the article make use of Appeal to Popularity,Appeal to Authority,Begging the question?

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WFPC2
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文章 WFPC2 » 週一 26 5月, 2008 08:46

quantumkit 寫:
WFPC2 寫:有那些科學家信神?
http://blog.readnovel.com/article/htm/tid_460486.html
你post 條link 的用意係??
我唔係想傳福音,祗係想找一些有關科學家信神或宗教的資料作參考!
http://www.sosick.org/forum/viewtopic.p ... 9&p=115798

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